Zion ++ project stopped, p2p banned in France altogether?

[Lost Angel 0]

http://virus27.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=755

Don't know if anyone is using this client, but it was good for op'ing (and pretty much the only one)... Guy has closed his project because of the ban on any p2p including coding and distributing the client... Can any country's government just decide that sort of thing like that? Practically it seems they can...

Shall we talk about it?

[CraKteR 0]

Ofcourse they _can_. Bush could blow the earth into pieces if he wanted aswell.

However, this is totally unnesecary, they just can't get it in there head that downloading illegal helps them sell more.

[Lost Angel 0]

well, the point is exactly that while Bush did not blow up the Earth - the French did ban p2p. Can the British, the Germans and the what not do the same? Will it work? What will p2p community do? Can p2p community do something about it really? Have what lots of complaining online in the forums? Make demonstration? Yeah right...

The sell/buy argument is a different story - p2p helps in some ways and doesn't in many other ways.

[CraKteR 0]

Bull****! It helps everyone. And It's not really an diffrent story since everything is about money these days.

They can do the same, I would think alot of people would be pissed then. donno what actually would happen.

[Lee 84]

Good time for ApexDC++'s op client to step in.

[Zlobomir 3]

Good time for ApexDC++'s op client to step in.

And good time for all Darknet kinds of clients, as well for the new ectp protocol. Every action has its counter-action, not only in physics.

I'm dreaming about a fully encripted DC++ software and protocols, so THEY can't be able to find out THE IP. Furthermore, their attempt to decript would make THEM criminals, if THEY do not change the laws.

...You may say I'm a dreamer,

but I'm not the only one... (pwrd by Beatles)

As for Bush, I prefer the Earth blown up rather than turned into UPS (useless piece of shhhh...). :thumbsup:

Again offtopic, I'm in no way accepting the communism, but during the Cold War nor USA, nor USSR would have the time to think about the problems we are facing now in our "democratic" society.

[Lost Angel 0]

Caretaker,

you are missing the point - it is not about the govts realizing they're doing crap thing, which I see p2p ban as, and so do you. It is about that they

- can do it

- did it

- we can't do jack about stopping it

- wtf are we gonna do then?

Zlobomir,

my thoughts too - wanna have a well-working anonymous p2p client, though I realize they'll just "fix" the laws, so that, for example, "all traffic should be monitored for copyrighted material exchange, and such and such protocols are forbidden to be used under a threat of fine of 6000000 pounds". So really there is little that ones like ourselves can do: protocol should not only be anonymous and secure, it should be stealthy. Plus keep in mind no law will make the multicorporation's spying on you actions illegal - they are the ones lobbying for their interests with governments with their money - not us - fellow internetizens, so practically (not theoretically) government represents their interests and not ours. There is a chance, though that some e-citizen will apply for a govt. position and get support from the masses through online campaign, then, maybe... but who knows...

[CraKteR 0]

Sure we can stop it. Kill all idiots.

And how could you misspell my nick like that? >.<

[Lost Angel 0]

CraKteR, sorry about the nick - not intentional... -)

With killing - I mean realistic solutions.

[CraKteR 0]

Well, people could demonstrate, if there were enough I would guess the police coulden't take all, however if they had changed It again I actually donno.

[Zlobomir 3]

Well, people could demonstrate, if there were enough I would guess the police coulden't take all, however if they had changed It again I actually donno.

Yep, see exactly France. Their new law for discriminating youths at work. So they just went out and started kicking the fat government a*ses. Ruining cars, infrastructure and sh... So, if we are organized, we can do a LOT! Imagine all of us convincing all his/her friends NOT to buy any movie, software, etc... Companies will be f*cked up in no time. Sure we can live without their production, remember the old days? But they can't live without us as customers!

[Greg 0]

To me quite honest, it doesn't effect me, if p2p is illegal is that really a suprise? It doesn't effect me directly or indirectly really so I'm not to bothered, you can say that I shouldn't take that stance but if I was worried about everything I disagreed with in this world, or just politics and western civilization I would be one stressed man.

I'm also not concerned about changing protocols as I believe nothing is totally safe, if you want to be safer then shy away from public networks, only upload and share in private places. Downloading isn't so much of a problem, it's the uploaded they want to stop.

[Lost Angel 0]

To me quite honest, it doesn't effect me, if p2p is illegal is that really a suprise? It doesn't effect me directly or indirectly really so I'm not to bothered, you can say that I shouldn't take that stance but if I was worried about everything I disagreed with in this world, or just politics and western civilization I would be one stressed man.

I'm also not concerned about changing protocols as I believe nothing is totally safe, if you want to be safer then shy away from public networks, only upload and share in private places. Downloading isn't so much of a problem, it's the uploaded they want to stop.

Well, it doesn't affect you since p2p is not illegal (or are you French?) - if your provider will be asked to send your address to the local police (or similar) force every time you use p2p filesharing software protocol - this will make a difference for you personally. I am not saying we should all be worried here - I see a problem at some place similar to my own one and I am interested in discussing what ways are out there to prevent this from happening or how to react if it will happen. *skipping the "I'm so cool and I don't give a damn 'bout nothin'" part* They want to stop UL and DL - they want to stop exchange (and that is a common idea of p2p filesharing - exchange and not downloading, which is one-way) of materials that they hold a copyright for.

Issues really are 2:

- copyright and privacy laws are made ages ago and have not changed significantly with emergence of the Web, where they are largely inaplicable.

- big corporations through governments want to maximize profits and are loosing money on p2p, so they want to combat it.

[spyke 0]

Well put Lost Angel :thumbsup:

[Kevo 0]

And good time for all Darknet kinds of clients, as well for the new ectp protocol. Every action has its counter-action, not only in physics.

I'm dreaming about a fully encripted DC++ software and protocols, so THEY can't be able to find out THE IP. Furthermore, their attempt to decript would make THEM criminals, if THEY do not change the laws.

I don't really know if encryption would work for DC unless you do one of several things: public DC hubs cease to exist, you create a network similar to freenet where everyone is a proxy cache, or you create keys that only those who know it can add you (like WASTE). Encryption doesn't hide your IP, it can mask the communication between clients, but if a company decides to download from you, they have your IP (unless you use a proxy and slow your speeds down).

[Lost Angel 0]

of course, but maybe the proxy concept should be reinforced in this case - like an advanced version of freenet perhaps. I mean, people need to be pushed to no alternatives to start thinking seriousely of alternatives.

[Greg 0]

Or you could just to private places and only share with trusted people. Except for the the places I OP on and affiliates of those places, there are no public hubs I'm on. This is so much better then anonymous in my eyes. If someone is anonymous how do you ban them? If someone is anonymous how do you know they are a good source, a worthwhile person? This is a quote which I have seen applied elsewhere for a totally different purpose, but to me it still have meaning to me on the subject of anonymity: "I'm not on DC for the files, I'm on it for the people". That's jsut it, for me DC is not my main source of files, I don't often have to source for stuff here, I could just as easily use IRC for that, the files are a great added feature which make DC the medium by which I communicate with others over other places.

When anonymity kicks in you loe touch with peoiple, you're more detached. An IP address, it could be argued, is not important to how you know someone. Yet, it's something that is there to begin with, it's something which you automatically know about them jsut by them being there from the outset. You take this away and there is nothing, DC becomes more file based. Now yes DC is a whole filesharing idea, but at its core it also seems to be strongly focused around "chat". Anonymity in DC will only aid leechers and encourage the use of private hubs. Most private hubs that I use are very hard to get into unless you know one of the people inside and as such it's not required for your IP address to be hidden as there's no one bad there to see. That's it, if you push people away from the public hubs (anonymity = help for leechers etc) then they'll be in private hubs anyway. Maybe some idea of the proxy jsut being used for transfers could work or whatever, but that doesn't seem a very easy concept... there also seems to be a lot of wasted bandwidth if something like this was done, not to mention who will supply all these proxies. It's easy enough for a few people to use a proxy for there transfers, but when you have the whole of the DC community doing who is going to want to give up there bandwidth by choice? I should rather be on highshare private hubs with less people and more variety then a public hub with leechers and whatnot where I didn't know who anyone is.

There's different ways of going about things, anonymity is not a path I would choose, because public networks are not my main path of choice.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Greg

[Lost Angel 0]

Well DC used to be more like a chat to me, but not I don't have time for it anymore, so I am just op'ing a lil here and there... I do not think anonymity is the key either, - I am worried about the legal implication of the file exchange thing, though. Private hubs is a good idea, but if public hubs were to be closed through authorities - next thing they would go for is more private files exchange and this will lead to shrkinging of the scene as well as to mistrust among members of private hubs once some of them get closed and members - busted. To me solution is not in anonymity, but in changing the legal system to be more realistic and people-friendly in respect to p2p (which is at large and issue, since there are many ways to just chat, like irc).

As for BW waste - I believe BW is not strictly material and as time goes we will all have high BW internet like we have electricity now (and hopefully it will not be more expensive with time)...

[Zlobomir 3]

I fully agree with Lost Angel - the legal system is to be changed, because at least currently there is NOT anonymity in the Internet. I wish it was not so, but seems that things are not developing in this direction (ectp is still not ready, etc.). And banning P2P is like burning up people for pretending the Earth is a globe. I pay my I-net fee to a licensed provider (it is not even my obligation to check its license), my buddy pays his/hers I-net fee, so??? One might say "Yeah, but I-net is just for chat and similar activities." Well, what's the difference if I cut off my I-net access and buy fuel with the money, then physically move to the peer with the whole PC? Same is with books and copiers. So when a law is stupid (ineffective), it should be canceled, even if there is some truth in it.

But I'm afraid that the discussion is moving in closed circle (not without my help). :)

[Greg 0]

Having said that though, I hate people who download movies and sell them or whatever. Illegally stealing copyrighted material is one thing, but then profiting from this is something else altogether. The in ternet was not designed to me anonymous and was a thing designed for the US government or something anyway? If you want anonymity then you need a different network, you can't just change the existing one really. The internet is based around IP addresses and most likely always will b e, and I don't have a problem with that, the internet would be useless otherwise (we need addresses for stuff, domains use IP addresses etc.).

As to the authorities going after "scene" people... they already do. The people that produce this illegal material and the idiots at the other end are the people targetted most.

[Lost Angel 0]

well, another networks is a possibility - internet is already outdated in many ways, but my guess is that it will follow no sooner than we get wi-fi globally.

[Kevo 0]

of course, but maybe the proxy concept should be reinforced in this case - like an advanced version of freenet perhaps. I mean, people need to be pushed to no alternatives to start thinking seriousely of alternatives.

The problem with Freenet is that it brings itself to its knees under high loads and the network almost becomes unusable. Almost all of the anonymous P2P networks are slow and kinda crappy unless you stay online a couple of days. P2P is fun because of the risk

no sooner than we get wi-fi globally.

Nah, I don't wi-fi, I want my fibre optics... my ISP suppose to have it out by next year, but I doubt it :D

[Greg 0]

Nah I don't like the indea of global wi-fi either. There's jsut not enough of a need for changing to a different network anyway, and surely wi-fi would still use IP addresses?

For sending emails or whatever using a proxy can be fine, but if you choose to illegally download stuff then you choose to take the risk that goes with it, sure I'd be nice to remove that risk, but that#'s not exactly going to happen anytime soon, if even. By the time that happens they'll find other ways rather then checking an IP address. Who knows where citilization is headed, one day computers could be gone, one day all peoples files could be monitored, one daymaybe computers won't deal with "files". When you look into the future it's never simple.

[Lost Angel 0]

Kevo,

with freenet - I tried once (since my university has banned all p2p under the threat of expulsion). Jumped in and saw that about 80% of stuff is pedo resources... Not sure it was freenet - something that uses browser rather than it's own client. That aside, I didn't figure out how to download from there before my "give up limit" was used up. (wonder if it really was freenet though). Either way this is not the kind of p2p I imagine.

With fibre optics - cables are temporary - think about it - if you can send that stuff through waves, you can max out the data throughput by developing multisource transfer applied to wifi...

Greg,

I believe ip address is something that can be done with, however it is of course backed up by the authorities. As for anonymity - I don't personally have a major need for it, but I'd rather have it. I can always willingly identify myself to people I need,- so identity is not harmed. As for bad guys having it anonymous - I don't mind - it's their business and it is my business to have antivirs and firewalls against that. If legal system is not catching up with times - I don't want to lag with it. As for total control argument - we are heading there, I believe, but I don't think we'll get there (for every file monitoring argument).

[Greg 0]

The internet would not work without IP addresses. It's like the mail system, or the phone network. We need addresses and numbers, I can't see it being possible in any network to remove such a thing... and I don't even want it to be honest.

The best way to have anonymity would be to just have hubs but all the data transfered via the hub, I guess that'd work. Yet it'd waste every so much bandwidth, I don't just mean the transfered amount, the speed too. With private hubs you also know the users you're downloading and the quality of the files will be good, you can ask people questions about files prior to downloading, you can request slots and get them.

Edited May 22, 2006 by Greg