16 replies to this topic

[Big Muscle]

pR0Ps, on 27 February 2011 - 10:01 PM, said:

Will users who don't install the toolbar be able to access the beta version announcements via an RSS feed or something? I'm not (and I'm sure some other users aren't as well) partial to installing toolbars, no matter how reputable the devs are.

<snip>

Edited by Lee, 27 February 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[Big Muscle]

Rude? I don't think that it's rude to post link to information about current status of wx migration process which you are based on. I hope you don't want to deny that new ApexDC++'s wxWidgets gui will only be a pure copy of my hard and time-consuming work in  StrongDC++ and you don't want to make a profit from it.

[Crise]

Big Muscle, on 28 February 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

I hope you don't want to deny that new ApexDC++'s wxWidgets gui will only be a pure copy of my hard and time-consuming work in  StrongDC++ and you don't want to make a profit from it.

Profit, hardly... while it is true that we do use earlier revision of your work as base and have merged some of your later changes recently by no means is it a pure/direct copy nor are we making profit out of your work (as a matter of fact, right now we are not making any profit at all - if Lee so chooses he can get into more detail on this).

[Big Muscle]

Sorry, I don't care whether it is pure copy or not, I don't care that you use it. License allows it, so use it as you want. But I'm pissed off that you (or Lee) still advertise that there will be new wx GUI in Apex (we have a term "flaunt foreign feathers" in Czech language for it), multiplatform etc. etc. and when I point out where the whole wxWidgets thing comes from to provide users information how it looks like, he just says that I'm rude and deletes my post. I have whole application (except a few settings panels) migrated, all known bugs are fixed correctly (and not with weird workaround as I saw in your SVN), compiles and runs correctly under Linux, new theme engine done and many other stuff. Just language (translations) stuff rewrite remains. So if he wants I will stop committing anything to SVN. Then he can say that I'm rude.

[Crise]

Big Muscle, on 28 February 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

But I'm pissed off that you (or Lee) still advertise that there will be new wx GUI in Apex (we have a term "flaunt foreign feathers" in Czech language for it), multiplatform etc. etc. and when I point out where the whole wxWidgets thing comes from to provide users information how it looks like, he just says that I'm rude and deletes my post. I have whole application (except a few settings panels) migrated, all known bugs are fixed correctly (and not with weird workaround as I saw in your SVN), compiles and runs correctly under Linux, new theme engine done and many other stuff. Just language (translations) stuff rewrite remains. So if he wants I will stop committing anything to SVN. Then he can say that I'm rude.

For one, we never brought the new UI into spotlight in our news posts, what we have been highlighting is the cross-platform support. For us this, running on multiple platforms, means not only windows and linux but Mac as well (here Mac implies wxCocoa, and linux wxGTK obviously). Also we were already working on portability at the time when you said that SDC wx UI running on linux was not a priority for you at the time.

Big Muscle - StrongDC Forums said:

and releasing brand-new StrongDC++ version 3.0. After that, we can target on patching Windows dependent code and compile Linux version (and of course, versions for other platforms)!!! But as I said earlier, I don't use Linux at all, so porting StrongDC++ to other platforms won't be possible without users help. In other words, I WON'T do it myself, so it only depends on you whether you want e.g. Linux version and will help with development.

If you have since then patched your code to run on linux then that is great nonetheless. Also while we have made big deal out of 2.0. running on multiple platforms that is just one of the things 2.0 will be.

[Lee]

Big Muscle, on 28 February 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

I hope you don't want to deny that new ApexDC++'s wxWidgets gui will only be a pure copy of my hard and time-consuming work in  StrongDC++ and you don't want to make a profit from it.

Big Muscle, on 28 February 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Sorry, I don't care whether it is pure copy or not

Contradicting.

If you think ApexDC 2.0 will be the same as StrongDC wx then that's a valid point. It will look similar but offer more features such is the state of the current version. Anyway, this is not about ApexDC vs StrongDC. We have never claimed that we are completely rewriting the GUI ourselves, but adding to it. Nor will we use your forums as a promotional resource.

[Big Muscle]

Crise: yeah, it was not in news posts. It was in another posts in this forum where Lee was talking about ApexDC GUI rewrite. But no, it's not being rewritten, you are just merging to StrongDC++ code and that's why I posted a link - to show how does it look like in StrongDC++. You are right that you were focusing on other platforms earlier than me - I saw it when Lee came to DCDev and started to complain and blame that I added one Windows-dependent line in StrongDC++ code and it makes you merging with my code more difficult. At the beginning, I didn't want to commit wx code to SVN at all, but I did it so everyone can test it and send patches. Lee said that he will but what happen then? I was added to developer group here on forum to have access to your SVN (where I was already removed from without a reason) and after checking your SVN code I saw that you only use StrongDC++ SVN code to prepare new ApexDC++ version (and not for testing, helping me to finish it, bugfixing and sending patches as I was told earlier). Then I was told that every patch I find in your SVN. But there was nothing - nothing except StrongDC++ code + your own embedded PNG images + some hacks to allow compiling on Mac + some Apex specific things. This was not the purpose of my SVN (and that's why I'm ending with SVN commits now). And same status was still there a few days ago, Lee, no more features as you say. Maybe you should take a think what is rude.

[Lee]

Moved here, under the title StrongDC++ GUI rewrite.

Big Muscle: Do you have a link to the post because all I can find is this. I don't think I ever stated I would patch to your branch because a) it's open to public and i didn't ask for login details. Regarding DCDev conversation: I told you so you could use the code for your own linux port and reframe from including windows specific code in the future to save both of us time. I gave you developer access so you could contribute, which never happened (we seem to have the same opinion about both sides). You had the opportunity to be rewarded for your "hard work" too.

If you think all we've done is added png and "hacked" our way to Mac, then hold that opinion.

Just to clarify for everybody: ApexDC 2.0 is based on StrongDC++'s GUI rewrite using wxwidgets. It has always been the case and this dependence on StrongDC is stated on each changelog, and also displayed in our about box. Are we not providing you with adequate credit? We are using this opportunity to work on our GUI aswell, since no major improvements have been made on our part for some time. I'm not going to post about how your progress is going, but how we're getting on with our own progress.

The rude comment was maybe a little overboard but I don't see why we should allow you to plug your project on our forums.

Toast, on 01 March 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

epic cant say i blame you bm would have done the same thing, lee when are you going too learn that your not the lead dev and let Crise run the show... look where your actions took the project this time

Thanks for your input as usual Toast. I will refer you to our staff page that completely obliterates your "lead dev" remark. I think that page is near-enough from the beginning of apexdc.net.

[Crise]

Big Muscle, on 01 March 2011 - 09:04 AM, said:

I saw that you only use StrongDC++ SVN code to prepare new ApexDC++ version (and not for testing, helping me to finish it, bugfixing and sending patches as I was told earlier). Then I was told that every patch I find in your SVN. But there was nothing - nothing except StrongDC++ code + your own embedded PNG images + some hacks to allow compiling on Mac + some Apex specific things. This was not the purpose of my SVN (and that's why I'm ending with SVN commits now). And same status was still there a few days ago, Lee, no more features as you say. Maybe you should take a think what is rude.

I will only say that there are patches for SDC issues in there, for instance the view menu has been fixed (also added system log and transferview as separate entries to it). Also fixed right clicking on the bottom pane tabs (have proper context menus now, and can be closed, instead of showing active hubs context menu) Also NetStatsFrame is fully functional in it. These of course apply to the current SDC wx which I can see, what happened beyond then is something I can neither predict nor account for.

(We also had versions making use of the AUI framework before any of such was seen on your svn afaik, but this is of no importance, same with the share page which I believe you labeled as not good enough for not having the modern UI, over being portable and significantly faster choice for the time being).

I know the things listed above are nothing significant, because for us portability was and is top priority (until linux and mac variants are reasonably close to the current state of the windows build), but it is incorrect to say that we never did any of those at all.

As for new features not being there, but some actually are there (some incomplete, and most not in UI yet but they are there). Also there is no point in adding further untested code on top of an existing code that has number of issues. Before major feature development on the UI side can be done with confidence we need to be closer to the state where the WTL UI is right now (to avoid the possibility of a snowball effect).

Regarding contributing code to the StrongDC wxWidgets, we don't do patches just in case you might want to include them. This means to say that with your irregular commit frequency and no detailed info on what you are currently working on outside committed code preparing patches for you with the risk of you already having fixed an issue in your working copy will be waste of both your and our time (which is also the reason why we have steered clear from many issues in the UI code, since we have to always guess whether you have already fixed in your working copy or not).

Essentially I am implying that for multiple generally unrelated people to work together effectively some kind of activity tracking/tracking of assigned tasks would be beneficial. In other words what we have been doing is what we can do in the light of the current situation.

[iceman50]

I can pull up direct logs where lee was complaining about certain commits by BM to StrongDC svn, in regards to apex making money, well i can pull plenty of logs to detail some of the money made by ApexDC's advertising, and the expenditures @ early December spent on paying other devs to come and help with Apex migrating...but I have one question, if you're using StrongDC base, why the hell are you paying devs to come in and do work when obviously from this entire topic it's clear StrongDC's base has been used for ApexDC...well in all actuality Apex IS just a mod of StrongDC in the end ... I completely support BM and Lee when you get a clue on how much work a person spends and the time that is used to create **** like this from scratch than you can complain but seeing as you do nothing but tell what Crise to do and basically act as a marketing person, I nor many others consider your points valid on any level in this topic

[Lee]

Jumping on the "Lee bosses Crise about" bandwagon are we. Do you think Crise would be still here if that was the case? He has equal control over decisions made.

iceman50, on 02 March 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

why the hell are you paying devs to come in and do work when obviously from this entire topic it's clear StrongDC's base has been used for ApexDC...

Exactly, so Crise's points above are valid (since you want to ignore mine, and brush over his). I can't believe you've posted in here without having access to the code for evidence. Your point is invalid.

We have never claimed ApexDC is not a mod of StrongDC, so I don't know where you've got that from.

[Big Muscle]

Lee, on 01 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

I don't think I ever stated I would patch to your branch because a) it's open to public and i didn't ask for login details.

Sorry, I don't see a logic in this claim. You wouldn't commit in my repository, because it is open to public? Huh?! Maybe I don't understand you.

Quote

I gave you developer access so you could contribute, which never happened (we seem to have the same opinion about both sides)

And this is what I call "rude". I provide you my experimental code, you use it in your client and then you say me that I can contribute to your repository? Is there any reason why I should patch your code when it is you who is interested in merging my code with yours?

Quote

If you think all we've done is added png and "hacked" our way to Mac, then hold that opinion.

But that's the fact! Yeah, Crise mentioned some more things + there are some arrows when moving tabs. Also, very often some weird workaround appears in your repository to avoid some my bug (instead of informing and putting heads together to find a real solution). Believe me or not, but putting weird code into wxWidgets library is not solution for simple bugs in client code (and this is how your developer works - I don't remember his name, but it wasn't Crise who made such commits). Why just not making real developer team and working together? The answer to this question is very easy - because you are interested in ApexDC++ completion only.

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Just to clarify for everybody: ApexDC 2.0 is based on StrongDC++'s GUI rewrite using wxwidgets. It has always been the case and this dependence on StrongDC is stated on each changelog, and also displayed in our about box. Are we not providing you with adequate credit?

This is not important to me. It wasn't the point of my posts. I wanted to point at your unappropriate behaviour around it.

Quote

We are using this opportunity to work on our GUI aswell, since no major improvements have been made on our part for some time. I'm not going to post about how your progress is going, but how we're getting on with our own progress.

The rude comment was maybe a little overboard but I don't see why we should allow you to plug your project on our forums.

Why you should? Because your project is completely based on my project. I sometimes notice that you even copy every stupidity and you are not able to do simple things without me doing it first (e.g. emulation off by default - in reference to your recent PM to me etc.)... and on the other side, I could put the same question, because you also reported ApexDC++ bugs to me (e.g. in my forum's betatesters area etc.)

[

Crise, on 01 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

I will only say that there are patches for SDC issues in there, for instance the view menu has been fixed (also added system log and transferview as separate entries to it). Also fixed right clicking on the bottom pane tabs (have proper context menus now, and can be closed, instead of showing active hubs context menu) Also NetStatsFrame is fully functional in it. These of course apply to the current SDC wx which I can see, what happened beyond then is something I can neither predict nor account for.

But why I wasn't informed about this bug? (Atlhough I don't see such problems in my code). And current wxStrongDC++ state is that it is completely done except progressbars in queue and a few settings dialog which are not done by me.

Quote

(We also had versions making use of the AUI framework before any of such was seen on your svn afaik, but this is of no importance, same with the share page which I believe you labeled as not good enough for not having the modern UI, over being portable and significantly faster choice for the time being).

You are right here. AUI MDI tabs is the thing I was inspired in your code. To share page, I don't know why but why you just lose your time on doing something needless? Why you just didn't help me with doing it properly (I had to do it myself and it took me a few days only, no problems with portability etc.)? This just looks to me that you wanted to make at least something to have ApexDC++ "fully" functional and were not interested in migration help at all.

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I know the things listed above are nothing significant, because for us portability was and is top priority (until linux and mac variants are reasonably close to the current state of the windows build), but it is incorrect to say that we never did any of those at all.

You're still talking that portability is your priority and GUI rewrite is not your point of interest. So why do you merge with my GUI? Just because it's main step to portability! The rest is only a few compile fixes which can be fixed in a few hours!

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Regarding contributing code to the StrongDC wxWidgets, we don't do patches just in case you might want to include them. This means to say that with your irregular commit frequency and no detailed info on what you are currently working on outside committed code preparing patches for you with the risk of you already having fixed an issue in your working copy will be waste of both your and our time (which is also the reason why we have steered clear from many issues in the UI code, since we have to always guess whether you have already fixed in your working copy or not).

Just look at adrian, for example. He just wrote me "I will port this and this and then I will commit it to your SVN". This is how the team work should work!

[Crise]

Big Muscle, on 02 March 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

And this is what I call "rude". I provide you my experimental code, you use it in your client and then you say me that I can contribute to your repository? Is there any reason why I should patch your code when it is you who is interested in merging my code with yours?

I don't think Lee meant you contributing directly in terms of code but with opinions and discussion, after all as you said since we are the party that is interested in merging with your work you contributing to our repository would not make any sense at all (to condense: communication).

Big Muscle, on 02 March 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Why you should? Because your project is completely based on my project. I sometimes notice that you even copy every stupidity and you are not able to do simple things without me doing it first (e.g. emulation off by default - in reference to your recent PM to me etc.)... and on the other side, I could put the same question, because you also reported ApexDC++ bugs to me (e.g. in my forum's betatesters area etc.)

I am, by default, not aware about private communication that happens between you and Lee. However, Lee is not a programmer so it makes sense he wouldn't know about how to disable emulation by default (among other things), that said I don't deny the fact that there are certain areas of code that I am not completely familiar with either (since there are things I don't use the program for so it is not high on my priority list to learn or modify those areas of the code) but I certainly have always known how to disable emulation by default.

As for why we did not disable emulation by default before you, there is always a risk in being the first to do something so basically we wanted to see the general response to it before making a decision on it.

Big Muscle, on 02 March 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

This just looks to me that you wanted to make at least something to have ApexDC++ "fully" functional and were not interested in migration help at all.

As for this, some of it is certainly true... we wanted to have something so that we could send builds to certain people who are necessarily not developers to test and since sharing is integral part of DC we felt that at least that should be somehow accessible without having to explain how to make changes manually. As for why send builds out to people at this stage even though ApexDC specifics have barely been touched on in the UI. The reason is simple: we don't necessarily use all aspects of the program equally some not at all, not to mention that for a developer to test a program is not the same as for user to test it.

Users have tendency of coming up with very creative ways of using a program you know, also we get feedback on what kind of behavior the user expects for instance if user tries to do something and nothing happens if this is repeated more than once then it is reasonable to do something about it even if it may not seem the best choice for us personally.

Big Muscle, on 02 March 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

You're still talking that portability is your priority and GUI rewrite is not your point of interest. So why do you merge with my GUI? Just because it's main step to portability! The rest is only a few compile fixes which can be fixed in a few hours!

Something that compiles does not necessarily mean that it works, besides that there are behavioral differences between different OSes which also means that what may seem like regular or standard behavior on windows may not be the most natural behavior on other operating systems.

Big Muscle, on 02 March 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Just look at adrian, for example. He just wrote me "I will port this and this and then I will commit it to your SVN". This is how the team work should work!

This is how a team can work, however, the more people doing this the more inconvenient it will get, since with your model the communication is closed off between you and someone else (in this case adrian). There are also no public reference accesible when you are not reachable anywhere so the people involved will have to always wait for you to be available to even ask the simplest questions and with people on different timezones the inconvenience factor just keeps going up.

[adrian_007]

oh well, we're all (bm, you, and me) in pretty much close timezones so... thats not a case anyway
if you need to drop a line that you want write sth that isn't done, you have plenty of ways - forum, pm, mail, dcdev (thats mine btw), it's also not a case. if you'd be willing to help, you'd find a way...
less marketing, more coding

[iceman50]

Lee it's awfully funny you say it, I don't need access to your svn to know and anyways it seems most of Apex's recent stumbles are directly related to you so stick where you belong, marketing, just because you paid people to do work (and let's be honest you tell crise what you want so let's cut the crap there as well) doesn't mean you know what you're talking about so all your points have become moot, not to just me but to a lot of others. Oh and P.S you may want to fix your source up a bit ... having your sln names still reflect as StrongDC.sln ... you should at least change that to reflect your projects respective name...